NEWS: You Know What American Schools Need? More Guns.

CULTURE: You Know What American Schools Need? More Guns.

So says a group called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, which is "a non-partisan, grassroots organization comprised of over 8,000 college students, faculty members, parents, and concerned citizens (about 90% college students and 10% faculty, parents, and concerned citizens) who support the right of concealed handgun license holders to carry concealed handguns on college campuses."

The group gained major momentum after Virginia Tech, and increased its numbers via Facebook. It organized its first nationwide protest in October. Scott Lewis, the group's national spokesman, said that students at more than 110 colleges and universities went to class wearing empty holsters this past Monday.

Other advocates for the cause claim that it's not just potential shootouts a la Virginia Tech that they're worried about, but "thugs or mentally ill shooters" outside of the campus boundaries.

While just about anyone who meets licensing criteria can carry a concealed handgun in the US (every state but Illinois and Wisconsin allows residents some form of concealed handgun carrying rights) most states forbid them from being brought onto school campuses, and in states where schools get to choose for themselves, they almost always prohibit it.

Even in gun-loving Texas, there are some students who are freaked out by the idea of concealed handguns being allowed on campus.

It's easy to imagine that in the face of another Virginia Tech style incident, sane students carrying concealed weapons might be able to save the day, but is it realistic? In addition to the social and academic pressure on college and university campuses, you've got serious partying, drug and alcohol use happening. Somehow, encouraging students to walk around packing heat just doesn't seem like the rational thing to do.

Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, agrees that adding more guns to campuses is not the way to solve campus safety concerns.

"If there's more we need to do, we certainly need to do that, but introducing random access to firearms is not the solution," said Hamm. "You have more victims, not fewer victims."

The day this group gets their way will be my last day as a college prof.

I'm of the mind that the sane people who carry guns are not going to get themselves involved in shootouts ala John Woo in the middle of a small army of innocent bystanders. Anyone that has been taught proper gun safety knows there's a line between drawing it and not drawing it, even when faced with another gun. That line is being surrounded by people in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, I believe, just like the police, the legal, law abiding, citizen should be able to react to imminent danger with equal force.

If that means you have to shoot someone so you don't die, then that's what it means. It's sad, but we live in a world where fighting fire with fire can turn into the last resort, but we do, and I don't think those who won't abuse the privilege (not RIGHT) to carry a concealed weapon to protect themselves should be punished because of some nutcase.

There is a student who has three 1000 word papers and two tests in a span of two weeks. The boss at his job is a real asshole and the girl he is dating is giving him mixed messages about their relationship and he has barely enough money to live on campus and eats KD every day for supper.

Ya give him a gun.

These people are fucking stupid. Give a person with massive amounts of pressure a gun is real dumb.

I don't see any possibly advantage to allowing concealed handgun carriage on campus. Given the age demographic, the aforementioned pressures of being a college student, and the ready access to alcohol...it just sounds like a recipie for disaster.

of course I also have to say that I think handgun ownership in general is a poor idea. The "but the bad guys have guns" argument has never held with me. The solution to that is to take the guns away from the bad guys...and make them far less available...not make them more readily available. I think handgun ownership should be limited to at home or vehicle, for traveling and for going to a range.

People think they're going to be heroes. Everyone saw Home Alone when they were little and wants the robbers to break into their house so they can be the hero. It doesn't work like that, in reality, if someone who was carrying tried to fight back, the would most likely end up hitting an innocent bystander.

Maybe if they carry guns and kill all the innocent bystanders, than the murderers and robbers and such would have no one to shoot anymore. That would solve the problems.

Man I hate living here.

Apparently Might=Right.

This will end bad!

But the point here is 90% of people under that pressure aren't going to snap. It's the 10% that will snap, and also own a gun without the legal privilege of carrying it to worry about.

Think about it: How much pressure are we under as adults? I've got rent, other bills, my job, girlfriend, family, the Holidays, etc... same crap as everyone else, but you don't see massive shoot outs on the news everyday. It's because most people know the difference between right and wrong and act accordingly.

I'm not worried about the guy I work with carrying his gun. I'm worried about the asshole in the parking lot waiting for me to leave my store at night and try to rob someone or worse.

Where I live some guys robbed a movie theater after tying up the employees and took all the money out of the safe. Now, it was relatively unviolent (I think they may have been armed with bricks too). That's not a situation where you want someone ripping a gun out trying to save the day.

However move that scene to the ATM across the street and all of a sudden a person is alone: The gun comes out and 90% of the time the criminal runs before there's even a shot fired. Most handgun encounters with someone that HAS the legitimate privilege to carry a handgun, end without a single injury. The sight of the gun is usually enough to scare a would be criminal off.

Not at all, and if that's the message I conveyed let me apologize. I don't want to be misunderstood. But, if you pay enough attention to the news you do hear positive stories where people WITH guns DO "save the day.

Look at it like this: Criminals are not very likely to break the law. They're also not likely to break the law if they think theres a good chance someone that's not going to like their intentions is also armed. I'm not saying arm every college student. I'm not even saying let them carry their weapons on campus. I'm saying the whole point of carrying a weapon is to protect yourself from the people who are ill-intentioned, and a few bad apples shouldn't ruin the whole bunch.

When everyone talks about how many guns criminals have and the crime rates involving guns none of those same people want to mention how many people actually, legally, own a gun. "When you look at the numbers that way Conclusions: The US population continues to contain at least one firearm for every adult, and ownership is becoming increasingly concentrated. Long guns are the most prevalent type of gun in the US but handgun ownership is widespread. Ownership demographic patterns support findings of previous studies." (http://injuryprevention.bmj.com) That means out of all of the legal guns about 8000 (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm) people WITH a gun committed a homicide. That's a major gap there. Might doesn't make RIght, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Just thinking about this a little bit, firstly...if most people with a right to carry a weapon also have a right to carry a concealed weapon that means that not all of them are good shooters, and, I'm sincerely hoping, not all of them are used to shooting at another human.

this leads me to believe that if someone, namely a thug or a nut job, opens fire on a college campus, someone carrying a concealed weapon is physically equipped to defend themselves, but not necessarily skillfully or mentally equipped.

Furthermore, don't most universities have a campus police. and don't those campus police carry weapons. and don't those weapons do the same damage as a concealed weapon.

and FUTHERMORE, does carrying a concealed weapon grant you the right to vigilantism? I get it that this is, rhetorically at least, about "self-defense" that is to say, someone has already shot at you...but I feel like there are plenty of people who might go and try to seek out said nutjob?

you know what American schools need? More people actually attending classes, even with those evil pinko commie liberal teachers, rather than gun rallies.

If they're licensed to carry everywhere else, why not college?

I think before the idea is dismissed out of hand you should research the Grundy Law School Shooting. I am not going to link anything as I am sure any link provided will only be seen as unreliable or biased. This event would have been even more tragic than it was had it not been for the actions of a few.

As someone who has maintained a conceal carry permit for over five years and as someone that has taught several safety courses, I find it interesting people reaction is that there is some type of "hero" complex at work. Everytime a state enacts legislation for the right of private citizens to carry concealed, it is always the same reaction. It is going to be the "Old West" and time and time again it never comes to pass. But you have a place like DC where you basically have no right to self-defense for the past three decades have had some of the most draconian gun laws in the country and it has done nothing to affect crime and some how this is acceptable. I guess in the case results to not matter as long as people are "trying". Considering it is peoples lives we are dealing with I believe that only results should matter. I also find it interesting to the point of hilarity that the same people that believe that private citizens should not be allowed to own firearms want only the government and law enforcement to have them. Think about this for moment. This shows that the framers of the constitiution understood what they were doing.

If you are actually interested in reading hard data on the subject look at any of the books written by John R. Lott. His first book can be quite a revelation.

If you believe that the police are the solution it is just intellectually irresponsible to believe this to be true. It is impossible just due to sheer numbers. It was also ruled in Washington DC that:

"fundamental principle that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen."[5]

Here is this in demonstration:

"In the especially gruesome landmark case the "no-duty" rule got ugly. Just before dawn on March 16, 1975, two men broke down the back door of a three-story home in Washington, D.C., shared by three women and a child. On the second floor one woman was sexually attacked. Her housemates on the third floor heard her screams and called the police.
The women's first call to D.C. police got assigned a low priority, so the responding officers arrived at the house, got no answer to their knocks on the door, did a quick check around, and left. When the women frantically called the police a second time, the dispatcher promised help would come_but no officers were even dispatched.

The attackers kidnapped, robbed, raped, and beat all three women over 14 hours. When these women later sued the city and its police for negligently failing to protect them or even to answer their second call, the court held that government had no duty to respond to their call or to protect them. Case dismissed."

You can research this as well.

I am not saying that everyone should carry or that everyone should own a firearm. It is a personal choice and that is the way it should remain. Taking away a persons right to defend themselves or their loved ones is beyond criminal. Your personal protection is your responsiblity and no one elses. A criminal by demonstration of their actions will not follow laws. But a law abiding person will. So while a criminal will find a gun or any other weapon for that matter openly breaking the law. A person who follows that same law intended to protect them will follow it potentially to their peril. Who is hurt here?

Quite honestly because, and this is based on 7 years of observing students as a prof and 5 years as a student myself, most students don't yet have the maturity to handle the responsibility of carrying and using a lethal weapon, particularly when paired with the stress of college life.

(no offense is intended towards those still in college or of that age)

I am still in college, and I take absolutely no offense.

Here's an idea. Since a lot of Yanks keep to the idea that they have the right to own a gun in case of a revolution, how about you put your money where your mouth is an use your armed civilian forces to overthrow this corrupt, illegal government?

If you'll excuse me, now, I think that's the FBI knocking at my door.

"Come on, guys. I keeed, I keeeed."

That same student could go get a gun quite easily, he just can't bring it on campus legally and as we've seen, it's not hard to bring them on campus illegally.

You sir, are fucking stupid.

Campus police on a lot of campuses are just rent-a-cops. They're not going to save you.

But in the case where there are real police, let's look at the VT thing. They took fucking FOREVER to get in there and do something even though they could hear shots ringing out. They were obviously more interested in ensuring their safety during a response than in saving the lives of students. I understand the mentality, and I understand that police have a dangerous job, but it only highlights to me, the fact that your personal protection is YOUR job and no one else's.

I see a lot of opposition to this idea.

Can anyone tell me what ratio of gun related crimes are committed by people with licensed concealed carry licenses?

Yeah, this makes a ton of sense.

Instead of one crazed gun wielding maniac let's allow hundreds in disguise to run amok!

Shootouts are much safer than shootings...

yeah right.

Do they still teach math in college?

More guns = greater chance of shootings. (Justified, unjustified, accidental, whatever)
Less guns = less chance of shootings.

If I'm wrong, please cite me some examples were adding more guns into any situation decreased shootings.

"If most people with a right to carry a weapon also have a right to carry a concealed weapon that means that not all of them are good shooters,...."

Huh? Have you been drinking?

Why not? Hey, you know what else is prevalent on campuses? Alcohol!
You know what goes really well with alcohol? A gun!
Yay!

Now this is one of the topics im very involved with. i am a college student, I have a concealed weapons permit, I advocate keeping guns away from criminals but not infringing on those who follow the rules, and I have had training in active shooters and target analysis. I in no way shape or form advocate any student who has a permit carrying on campus. It's stupid.

The majority of people who get a permit have little or no training and at least in florida where im from the class to obtain a permit is 2 hours long and you fire 2 shots at a paper target. You can get a permit even if you have never held a gun in your life. The only students who i would feel comfortable with carrying on campus are those who either have the required training to act in that situation as in those who have military time or are police officers and attending school. Police officers off duty already can carry on campus in this state so that is taken care of.

I myself know that I have enough training to act in a situation of an active shooter on a campus but you have to analyze the target and the situation first, if your actions could pose a greater harm than good you back off and continue to analyze until it tips into your favor.

This was actually a huge debate in one of criminology classes a couple of weeks ago and I for one said that if under the current requirements to get a permit the state allowed students to carry i would leave school the next day. Granted people who take the time to get a permit are far less likely to commit a crime so they are pretty safe. I actually looked up stats for this, the state of florida has issued 4.5 million permits over the last 20 years, only 167 of those who had a permit have been arrested for commiting a crime with a fire arm. That is 8 people each year, considering the state population is almost 30 million thats a tiny damn number. So you cant even make the argument that just because someone gets a permit doesn't mean they are a good person.

The one thing I would like to see changed though is that permit holders be allowed to have a firearm in their vehicle on campus. I have to drive through the worst part of town to go to and from class and since you cant have a gun in a car on the campus even just passing through I cant carry it. That is not fair to those of us who will follow the rules laid down in front of us.

But I just hope the day never comes when kids who have no clue about how to deal with something like this can carry a gun on campus.

I don't really mind having well trained, responsible, mentally balanced people carrying guns around on a campus. I doubt the majority of the people who would choose to do so would be any of those things.

I actually really highly respect people who are into guns and know their stuff when it comes to safety and training. I just think those people are rare.

I enjoy firearms. I've been shooting since I as 6...my dad was a SWAT team sniper and he trained me...I used to run the police training course with his team every 6 months when they had training. I know how to properly handle and use a firearm. I have my conceal and carry permit. If I NEEDED to defend myself, I physically could, but even knowing that I did it in self-defense, I don't think I could live with myself if I had to shoot someone and possibly kill them. I have no clue how my dad isn't a mental case.

Now that being said, I work for a large University. I would not take my gun, whether it was allowed or not. Sure, there have been times I wished I'd had it. Walking to my car late at night by myself when it's parked in the scary garage...or when my department was receiving threats from a crazy person. In my opinion, it's just not intelligent to carry in as populated an area as I would be in. Even if I am safe as can be, accidents happen, someone could steal the gun and do harm, it might make my co-workers edgy...the reasons go on and on.

Plus, even though there are a bunch of 20-somethings that COULD handle the responsibility, I see a lot of idiocy on a daily basis, and I sure wouldn't want 90% of them to have weapons.